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foreign

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[Music]

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foreign

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host and we have actually two shows this

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evening actually if you're on YouTube

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you're going to want to jump over to

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Brandon fugle at eight o'clock now it's

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funny I changed the information on that

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oh I don't know maybe three four days

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ago in the platform that I use for all

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the streams and showed that it was

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changed there but it was not it was

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showing that it started at 6 00 p.m on

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YouTube so I apologize for that not sure

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how that happened but anyway he's coming

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up at eight o'clock and the guest I have

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now is a great guest that I had on uh

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previous I don't know a year and a half

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ago or so

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and it's Graham rundowell from the UK

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and he's a real great uh UFO nuts and

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bolts researcher and he is coming up on

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this show in just a few minutes so a

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couple things

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um the blog this week from Charles Lear

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is Letters From Mari Island principals

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in the 1967 Mercy side UFO bulletin so

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check that out on podcast ufo.com and I

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do want to thank all the supporters I

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want to thank all the listeners as well

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anyone can help us out we have to pay

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for certain things like graphics and

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blogs and things like that so anyone can

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help us out at patreon and that link is

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over on our website podcast

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ufo.com so we're supposed to have it's

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kind of I've been trying to find out

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information that's supposed to be a

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hearing tomorrow

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um from the all domain anomaly

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resolution office is what it's called

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now open close so I'm not really sure I

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heard it was a public uh

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you know there was going to be public

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testimony and Etc I think at least one

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person is is giving testimony but I

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can't find out any information about

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that maybe if you were going along here

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and someone in chat can uh enlighten me

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a little more on that that would be

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great

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um so anyway uh uh it will be another

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interesting time I do believe that our

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government is appearing to take this

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subject seriously and I hope they are

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and so I think I'm going to move ahead

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and just remember that uh this show is

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going to go to about 7 50 or so p.m uh

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eastern time and then we're jumping over

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to Brandon fugel the other show at uh

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eight o'clock sharp over there so join

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us over there after this one if you

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would

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um if you're listening to the audio

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you'll get both of these in the audio

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podcast

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um so you can listen to them on any type

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of media that you listen to our show on

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and Graham welcome to the show hello

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Milton thanks the the invite me back

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it's great yes and yeah I think it's

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what uh is it midnight there midnight

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yeah it's just gone midnight in the UK

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so yeah

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well I remember last time I had you on I

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was like really impressed so I'm really

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glad I have you back on again and uh the

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people that are watching this live uh

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they're going to wonder what they're

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looking at in your background uh so

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it's a book cover it is yeah it's part

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of the cover of the of the new book uh

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intercept and identify your aerial

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encounters uh

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1953-1954. so that's the latest in a

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series of books that I've written about

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pilots and air crew encounters or UFOs

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since basically the the early 1940s and

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what is this particular image of what is

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that encounter so this is from October

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1954 and it's a Gloucester meteor pilot

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so it's an RAF pilot who encountered

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this particular object over the south of

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and um and that is that was it caught on

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any type of radar or anything like that

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not this particular case the um the the

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pilot he's the only one actually saw it

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and you know he he came back to base he

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reported it he reported it to the

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squadron's intelligence officer who

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later on a few a few years down the line

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actually became the um one of the

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editors of flying saucer of uh review in

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the UK that the other the UFO magazine

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so it was quite it was quite strange

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actually how that Linked UP And if that

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never if that a person hadn't been you

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know the the hadn't become an editor of

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flying sort of a review then that case

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may never have come to light because he

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was the one that kind of pushed it if

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you like and you know printed details of

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it so this was back in the time when the

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RAF were clamping down on Pilots talking

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about their UFO sightings they were told

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not to talk to the Press

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um about this sort of time 1954

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um beforehand there'd been a few who

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would actually managed to have

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interviews with the media with the BBC

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and with with other

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um you know on film newsreels

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but uh at one particular time the RF and

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the ministry of Defense decided to clamp

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down on these releases of information so

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everything had to go through you know

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more official channels and of course you

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know when the Press asked about these

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kind of things then they just got

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denials

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um you know also you as we know and love

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you know they're like that's the kind of

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you know the story that went through the

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1950s and 1960s and onwards that you

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know just all these categoric denials

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that anything was actually happening

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I wonder how many things we missed

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because of that oh it would be lots of

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stories that went unreported

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um if you look at the kind of the stigma

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that started not just in Britain but

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also in the United States

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um there's a story in in flying source

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of fever uh that's the previous book to

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this one the the deals with 50 to 52

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cases of Edward rupelt who was the first

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director of Blue Book and he was on a

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flight uh that had a layover for a

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couple of hours at Chicago I believe and

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you got talking to the crew of the

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aircraft that he was flying on it was a

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scheduled airliner and they they saw his

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Air Force uniform that and he was asking

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about UFOs and they were initially

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dismissive but then when they found out

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he was actually you know the head of the

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investigation uh project then they they

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warmed to him and they actually got a it

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was an impromptu group

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um a meeting that was arranged in a

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coffee shop nearby and there was various

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pilots from different airlines turned up

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and had a chat with rupelt but they were

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saying to him then that because of the

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stigma and and you know they just

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weren't going to report these cases so

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you take it from there and also the

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military side of things where if

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somebody reports something and then

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they're told afterwards well it's it's

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Venus or it's a weather balloon then

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they're not going to like report and

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again are they or if they're Squadron

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mates you'll see this kind of thing

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happening then why why would you cause

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yourself so much hassle you just keep

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quiet about what you saw and that's

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really what happened so there's a you

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know countless probably countless

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numbers of cases which will have gone

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unreported and people have just kept

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quiet about them over over the years and

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especially back then

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well you know it's in every aspect not

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just the military where people have for

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years you know felt uh threatened or you

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know they didn't want to be called a nut

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case so uh you know I mean we're at a

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time now where I believe that people

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aren't so you know afraid to

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of the ridicule Factor anymore and uh I

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think it's a really good time so uh so

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anyway if you would can you uh for the

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person has never heard you before can

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you give a little bit about your

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background of what got you interested

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um in the UFO topic to begin with yeah

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so um I suppose if I go even further

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back than that I I was interested in

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aircraft from a really early age I'm

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talking about the age of four when I was

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given uh model aircraft kits to

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basically keep me quiet uh as a rather

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precocious kid

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um who was into everything you know I

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was a typical nerdy kid if I was

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interested in something I wanted to know

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everything about it so I learned a lot

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about aircraft just by getting books

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from the library and getting books for

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my birthday and all the rest of it but I

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was also interested in the science

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fiction from an early age and I was I

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was an early reader and I was reading

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things like Isaac asimov's books uh

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novels when I was eight or nine years

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old and of course they had nice pictures

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of um you know artwork on the friends of

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spacecraft uh and all this kind of stuff

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and my mother bless her um she bought me

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a book that she thought was one of these

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books uh one of these science fiction

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novels but it turned out to be a book

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about UFOs because it had a picture of a

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flying saucer in the front and that got

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me hooked on this particular subject so

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I was about eight or nine when that

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happened and of course these similar

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sort of things happened again you know

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read everything I could from the local

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library when I exhausted that particular

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stock of books then it was a city

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library and so there was more books

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there and I was getting books for my

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birthday Etc and it just went from there

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but of course this was this was in the

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late 1970s so you know you're talking

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way before the the internet age and

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therefore for somebody who's like you

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know um like so that kind of age you

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have limited opportunities to be able to

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get into the subject Beyond reading what

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you have in your local library I didn't

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know about UFO newsletters in the United

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States there were you know I didn't know

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how it even approach the people who ran

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them in in the UK so it was quite

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limited uh until much later on that I

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managed to you know start doing a bit

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more about the hobby uh which you know I

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had back then of UFOs and turned it into

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well not quite a career but a writing

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career

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um so you know I write books about them

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now and that's only you know much more

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recently than I've managed to do that

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but um you know when okay sorry when I

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came on the show last you know it was

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December 2021 to speak to you about the

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Foo Fighters that was when the three

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interests that I really had uh of you

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know long-standing interests that I've

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had came together so that's some

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aircraft uh World War II secret weapons

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the German secret weapons and UFOs and

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that came together with the Foo Fighters

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wow and the Foo Fighters I I think it's

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such a fascinating thing and just for I

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have a lot of new people they were back

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in 1945 right or 46. uh I get them

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confused I know the the ghost Rockets

272
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but uh they were during World War II but

273
00:11:31,370 --> 00:11:29,640
when was the first Foo Fighter reported

274
00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:31,380
that you know of well if you call them

275
00:11:35,389 --> 00:11:33,180
if you actually told me about Foo

276
00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:35,399
Fighters per se as in that particular

277
00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:38,040
phenomenon then the first reports were

278
00:11:42,889 --> 00:11:40,680
in about September 1944 the legend

279
00:11:43,970 --> 00:11:42,899
suggests that it was November 44 but

280
00:11:45,769 --> 00:11:43,980
actually it's much earlier it's like

281
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:45,779
several months earlier that the

282
00:11:49,730 --> 00:11:47,519
Americans start seeing things at night

283
00:11:51,889 --> 00:11:49,740
over Western Europe but actually if

284
00:11:54,590 --> 00:11:51,899
you're looking at UFOs just generally in

285
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:54,600
World War II then there are reports from

286
00:12:00,230 --> 00:11:58,320
as early as sort of May 1940 in the book

287
00:12:01,970 --> 00:12:00,240
that I wrote but since then I've been

288
00:12:04,190 --> 00:12:01,980
researching for maybe a follow-up to

289
00:12:06,350 --> 00:12:04,200
that book and I'm finding things from

290
00:12:07,730 --> 00:12:06,360
RAF intelligence documents which

291
00:12:10,009 --> 00:12:07,740
suggests that there were things going on

292
00:12:11,569 --> 00:12:10,019
as early as March 1940 which is really

293
00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:11,579
early in the war and this isn't even

294
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:13,380
before the bombing campaign got you know

295
00:12:17,389 --> 00:12:15,600
got going in Earnest they're being um

296
00:12:19,790 --> 00:12:17,399
RAF bombers are being followed by

297
00:12:22,250 --> 00:12:19,800
strange lights in the skies or the over

298
00:12:25,550 --> 00:12:22,260
over Germany and over France so you know

299
00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:25,560
things are really strange and the don't

300
00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:27,180
get a grip on what's Happening the

301
00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:28,560
intelligence people are just completely

302
00:12:33,410 --> 00:12:31,860
dumbfounded and they have no clue after

303
00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:33,420
months and months and even years of

304
00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:35,940
analysis and they're just none the wiser

305
00:12:38,269 --> 00:12:37,260
they think they're German aircraft but

306
00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:38,279
they're not

307
00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:40,200
um because they don't um you know they

308
00:12:43,790 --> 00:12:42,300
don't try and shoot the bombers down uh

309
00:12:46,009 --> 00:12:43,800
they just follow them someplace hundreds

310
00:12:47,930 --> 00:12:46,019
of miles at a time so it's really weird

311
00:12:49,370 --> 00:12:47,940
and I'm still going through the

312
00:12:52,430 --> 00:12:49,380
intelligence files that I managed to

313
00:12:53,569 --> 00:12:52,440
find in in the archives but this is a

314
00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:53,579
case of you know people haven't done

315
00:12:57,710 --> 00:12:55,320
this before but it's maybe just a case

316
00:12:59,449 --> 00:12:57,720
of also that people didn't know where

317
00:13:01,730 --> 00:12:59,459
some of these documents were and I've

318
00:13:04,129 --> 00:13:01,740
stumbled across a lot of them

319
00:13:06,110 --> 00:13:04,139
um so yeah it's it's interesting work

320
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:06,120
but it's also painstaking work and it's

321
00:13:08,569 --> 00:13:07,440
going to take me a while to get go

322
00:13:11,629 --> 00:13:08,579
through everything

323
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:11,639
okay so someone just uh gave me this

324
00:13:15,949 --> 00:13:14,160
information thank you Wyatt hello Martin

325
00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:15,959
the hearing tomorrow will be

326
00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:18,600
first held behind closed doors and then

327
00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:21,180
the public hearing will start so I'm

328
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:23,220
going to try to follow that and I uh

329
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:24,959
suggest anyone else interested in this

330
00:13:28,730 --> 00:13:27,600
topic may try to follow that if you can

331
00:13:31,069 --> 00:13:28,740
find

332
00:13:32,930 --> 00:13:31,079
um you know the links on online on how

333
00:13:35,090 --> 00:13:32,940
to actually watch that live I'm sure

334
00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:35,100
there'll be some once it's public it

335
00:13:40,430 --> 00:13:37,200
should be live I would think

336
00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:40,440
uh we'll we'll see be addressing anyway

337
00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:42,600
uh and this just came about you know

338
00:13:47,090 --> 00:13:43,740
it's like

339
00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:47,100
if I don't even know if uh I could

340
00:13:52,129 --> 00:13:49,560
attend anything like that as if I wasn't

341
00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:52,139
a journalist but it seems like if it's a

342
00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:54,060
public hearing that we'd be able to show

343
00:13:58,009 --> 00:13:56,220
up there but I mean it's funny it's like

344
00:13:59,690 --> 00:13:58,019
all of a sudden I think it was Wednesday

345
00:14:01,850 --> 00:13:59,700
of last week hey there's going to be a

346
00:14:03,949 --> 00:14:01,860
hearing on the 19th and yeah it happened

347
00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:03,959
fast it's been building for a while I

348
00:14:07,310 --> 00:14:05,220
mean there's been talk of it happening

349
00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:07,320
and then the date came out to you know

350
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,760
kind of came out the blue a little while

351
00:14:13,129 --> 00:14:10,800
ago and then the news that it was going

352
00:14:14,930 --> 00:14:13,139
to be as you know um correspondent there

353
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:14,940
says it was going to be a close hearing

354
00:14:18,410 --> 00:14:16,560
to start with at an open hearing

355
00:14:20,569 --> 00:14:18,420
afterwards and apparently that's not

356
00:14:21,949 --> 00:14:20,579
necessarily unusual it just seems a bit

357
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:21,959
strange

358
00:14:26,090 --> 00:14:24,000
um but you know I'm not I'm not that

359
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:26,100
kind of versed on on American politics

360
00:14:30,170 --> 00:14:28,079
so I'm not sure how kind of significant

361
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:30,180
that is in in what the ramifications are

362
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,920
but I'm sure it'll be all discussed to

363
00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:33,600
death afterwards and also it'll be

364
00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:34,920
watching it live as well from here in

365
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:37,860
the UK well you're very uh you're much

366
00:14:41,290 --> 00:14:39,360
better off not getting involved in

367
00:14:45,230 --> 00:14:41,300
American politics

368
00:14:47,449 --> 00:14:45,240
anyway so here's a question up here from

369
00:14:49,310 --> 00:14:47,459
Christopher are there surviving records

370
00:14:51,769 --> 00:14:49,320
of reports of Foo Fighters by German

371
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:51,779
Pilots no Christopher that's a good

372
00:14:54,829 --> 00:14:52,800
question

373
00:14:56,449 --> 00:14:54,839
um every time that you you see people

374
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:56,459
commentating on the Foo Fighters there's

375
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,320
always this kind of statement of well

376
00:15:02,810 --> 00:15:00,480
the Germans saw them as well now that's

377
00:15:04,610 --> 00:15:02,820
all very well the same but proving it is

378
00:15:07,009 --> 00:15:04,620
a different thing entirely there are

379
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,019
anecdotal stories about German pilots

380
00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:09,839
who say they saw things but there's no

381
00:15:13,370 --> 00:15:11,880
records that I know of

382
00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:13,380
um but somebody might you know come

383
00:15:16,009 --> 00:15:14,820
along and say oh here's here's a

384
00:15:18,590 --> 00:15:16,019
document that proves you otherwise

385
00:15:20,569 --> 00:15:18,600
you're on grain but I've never seen a

386
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,579
document that actually translates it

387
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:22,560
says that you know that here the Germans

388
00:15:25,790 --> 00:15:23,760
are saying that they saw something they

389
00:15:28,009 --> 00:15:25,800
saw something strange but there are

390
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:28,019
stories certainly and I Do cover those

391
00:15:32,210 --> 00:15:30,000
in the book that I wrote called UFOs

392
00:15:33,949 --> 00:15:32,220
before uh before Roswell and there's

393
00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:33,959
about maybe a half a dozen to a dozen

394
00:15:36,769 --> 00:15:35,220
stories

395
00:15:38,509 --> 00:15:36,779
um at different times during the war of

396
00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:38,519
German Pilots saying they saw strange

397
00:15:42,829 --> 00:15:40,500
things but there's no documentation to

398
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:42,839
do you know to go with them unlike the

399
00:15:47,389 --> 00:15:45,240
RAF side and like the America the US

400
00:15:49,610 --> 00:15:47,399
Army Air Force side so it's a different

401
00:15:51,769 --> 00:15:49,620
thing entirely there's also stories

402
00:15:53,629 --> 00:15:51,779
about prisoners of War uh German

403
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:53,639
prisoners of War pilots who were taking

404
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:55,920
prisoner who were telling their the

405
00:16:00,050 --> 00:15:58,079
captors about things like this but again

406
00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:00,060
it's actually trying to you know get

407
00:16:04,009 --> 00:16:01,740
those details

408
00:16:05,810 --> 00:16:04,019
um in in some kind of documentation form

409
00:16:07,850 --> 00:16:05,820
rather than just kind of word of mouth

410
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:07,860
uh because you know we've all heard

411
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:09,180
stories about certain things are

412
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:10,800
happening but until you actually get

413
00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:13,440
documents to prove it then they are only

414
00:16:19,550 --> 00:16:16,380
stories that's true yeah I mean that's

415
00:16:22,370 --> 00:16:19,560
that's uh I really appreciate your work

416
00:16:24,769 --> 00:16:22,380
because that's what you are looking for

417
00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:24,779
and you wouldn't put it out there unless

418
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:27,420
you had that information so

419
00:16:30,350 --> 00:16:28,800
um I think I do try to discriminate

420
00:16:32,449 --> 00:16:30,360
between the two things I'll certainly

421
00:16:34,370 --> 00:16:32,459
include stories like that if the if the

422
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,380
germane to the the you know the thing

423
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:36,240
I'm writing about but I'll try and

424
00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:37,680
discriminate between the fact that you

425
00:16:41,449 --> 00:16:39,240
know this is somebody just like coming

426
00:16:43,009 --> 00:16:41,459
up with a story or it's hearsay and then

427
00:16:44,569 --> 00:16:43,019
this one's actually backed up by

428
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:44,579
documents now point to where those

429
00:16:47,930 --> 00:16:46,560
documents exist yeah so that people can

430
00:16:49,790 --> 00:16:47,940
do their own homework if they're like

431
00:16:51,410 --> 00:16:49,800
they can look to see where I've got that

432
00:16:53,569 --> 00:16:51,420
information from but more importantly

433
00:16:55,730 --> 00:16:53,579
Martin they can see what the context of

434
00:16:57,889 --> 00:16:55,740
that information where it lies so it's

435
00:17:00,290 --> 00:16:57,899
not just me cherry picking certain words

436
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,300
and certain phrases to try and kind of

437
00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:02,160
justify a narrative because I don't

438
00:17:06,169 --> 00:17:04,260
really have a narrative in the books

439
00:17:09,230 --> 00:17:06,179
um I'm not one who says look you know I

440
00:17:10,610 --> 00:17:09,240
know what these things are this is why

441
00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:10,620
um I'll just say look this is what

442
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:12,360
happened at the time this is what was

443
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:14,760
reported you know the reader makes their

444
00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:16,559
own mind up as to what I'm talking about

445
00:17:20,090 --> 00:17:18,360
and I think that's a much more fair way

446
00:17:22,429 --> 00:17:20,100
of doing it because I'm really at the

447
00:17:24,770 --> 00:17:22,439
end of the day have as much clue or or

448
00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:24,780
less clue than everybody else as to

449
00:17:29,450 --> 00:17:26,520
what's happening you know and I'm not

450
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:29,460
afraid to say that yeah I say that often

451
00:17:34,909 --> 00:17:32,400
show it's almost like I almost seem to

452
00:17:38,029 --> 00:17:34,919
know less than I did when I started but

453
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:38,039
uh anyway it's such a curious topic and

454
00:17:43,549 --> 00:17:41,039
I don't ever seeing see that myself

455
00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:43,559
getting tired of this topic yeah

456
00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:45,000
yeah

457
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:46,440
um so I'm going to just talk quickly

458
00:17:53,150 --> 00:17:49,200
about your books UFOs before Roswell

459
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:53,160
dawn of the flying saucers and

460
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:56,460
uh let's see Ariel Ariel and UFO and

461
00:18:02,630 --> 00:17:58,799
official investigations in 1946 through

462
00:18:06,770 --> 00:18:02,640
1949 and then flying saucer fever Ariel

463
00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:06,780
encounters between 1950 1952.

464
00:18:14,810 --> 00:18:10,340
intercept and identify aerial encounters

465
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:14,820
1953 through 1954 of all those books

466
00:18:19,549 --> 00:18:17,039
that you wrote in those those time spans

467
00:18:22,909 --> 00:18:19,559
between each of them what would you say

468
00:18:25,610 --> 00:18:22,919
that the 1950 1952 was the most active

469
00:18:28,490 --> 00:18:25,620
when it comes to at least United States

470
00:18:30,289 --> 00:18:28,500
encounters or I think things will yeah I

471
00:18:31,370 --> 00:18:30,299
think things were building up really you

472
00:18:33,529 --> 00:18:31,380
know it was almost like a kind of

473
00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:33,539
pressure cooker that was going to

474
00:18:39,289 --> 00:18:36,240
explode and and that kind of you know

475
00:18:42,529 --> 00:18:39,299
situation almost a a rose in those two

476
00:18:44,930 --> 00:18:42,539
weekends in July 1952 when

477
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:44,940
um when the the U.S capital was I

478
00:18:50,330 --> 00:18:48,480
suppose the words besieged by UFOs

479
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:50,340
um and and of course yeah and the or air

480
00:18:54,049 --> 00:18:52,559
defenses didn't have a response to that

481
00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:54,059
they were sending aircraft up and the

482
00:18:57,169 --> 00:18:55,500
things were disappearing and then as

483
00:18:58,909 --> 00:18:57,179
soon as the aircraft you know were low

484
00:19:00,590 --> 00:18:58,919
on fuel and had to return the base then

485
00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:00,600
they were back again

486
00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:02,880
um and it showed the kind of inadequacy

487
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:05,820
of of American Air defenses I mean that

488
00:19:09,289 --> 00:19:07,919
had already been proved just by if you

489
00:19:13,610 --> 00:19:09,299
go through the cases that have happened

490
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:13,620
in the late like 40s and 1951 1952 there

491
00:19:18,890 --> 00:19:16,320
was no kind of adequate response that

492
00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:18,900
the American Interceptor fleets could do

493
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:20,220
with these things that were being

494
00:19:25,630 --> 00:19:22,559
reported but that was kind of writ large

495
00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:25,640
over Washington DC because you know

496
00:19:30,529 --> 00:19:28,440
you've got your nation's capital the you

497
00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:30,539
know the city of democracy and these

498
00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:33,240
things are flying over you know they can

499
00:19:37,850 --> 00:19:35,340
do what they like and and your Air Force

500
00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:37,860
have basically powerless to stop them

501
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:40,260
um so yeah things came ahead didn't they

502
00:19:45,049 --> 00:19:43,380
and the numbers of cases were were like

503
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,059
multiplying if you like now I'm sure

504
00:19:50,029 --> 00:19:48,000
some cases were copycats and people were

505
00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:50,039
trying to get onto a bandwagon and try

506
00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:51,480
and get their names and their papers and

507
00:19:54,529 --> 00:19:53,100
all this kind of thing

508
00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:54,539
um bearing in mind I'm looking at aerial

509
00:19:58,490 --> 00:19:56,760
cases but I'm ignoring the you know

510
00:20:00,289 --> 00:19:58,500
people on the ground who were seeing

511
00:20:01,789 --> 00:20:00,299
things up in the sky but there were

512
00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:01,799
still thousands and thousands of

513
00:20:06,350 --> 00:20:04,740
sightings and yet people were you know

514
00:20:08,450 --> 00:20:06,360
some people would have probably just

515
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:08,460
tried to jump on a bandwagon but when he

516
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:09,840
actually boil the the aerial site

517
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:11,820
settings down you've got professional

518
00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:14,400
Pilots you know airline pilots and Crews

519
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:17,100
seeing things and and they're you know

520
00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:18,960
effectively beyond your approach you've

521
00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:21,120
got military aviators who are highly

522
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:22,320
trained

523
00:20:26,870 --> 00:20:24,480
um you're professional Pilots but also

524
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:26,880
they're trained observers uh you're

525
00:20:30,529 --> 00:20:28,740
looking straight things which are out of

526
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:30,539
the ordinary and because their lives

527
00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:32,760
could depend on it sometime and they're

528
00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:34,320
reporting these things as well and those

529
00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:35,820
numbers of cases are just going up and

530
00:20:40,850 --> 00:20:38,820
up until that weekend but then of course

531
00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:40,860
you have this press conference that is

532
00:20:45,169 --> 00:20:43,320
hastily convened just after those

533
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,179
weekends right and you've got you know

534
00:20:49,850 --> 00:20:47,760
and you've got high ranking US Air Force

535
00:20:52,430 --> 00:20:49,860
um a general comes up and he's high up

536
00:20:54,529 --> 00:20:52,440
in intelligence and air intelligence and

537
00:20:56,210 --> 00:20:54,539
they're trying to put the lid on it and

538
00:20:57,470 --> 00:20:56,220
they're trying to dampen it all down and

539
00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:57,480
they're trying to say that you know what

540
00:21:02,390 --> 00:20:59,840
the scene of a washing were radar um

541
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:02,400
sorry temperature inversions which were

542
00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:05,280
causing your false radar Echoes

543
00:21:09,770 --> 00:21:07,080
um and that doesn't quite wash with the

544
00:21:12,590 --> 00:21:09,780
radar expert who's giving testimony a

545
00:21:15,169 --> 00:21:12,600
the the um at the press conference as

546
00:21:17,570 --> 00:21:15,179
well but the Press basically lap it up

547
00:21:20,210 --> 00:21:17,580
and they accept it because it's coming

548
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:20,220
from some high ranking officer yes and

549
00:21:25,730 --> 00:21:22,080
they go away so that kind of does

550
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:25,740
diffuse things a bit but even so the

551
00:21:30,649 --> 00:21:28,799
numbers of cases still get reported it's

552
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:30,659
not as if they're just quietly you know

553
00:21:35,810 --> 00:21:33,600
sort of dies off and people stop and

554
00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:35,820
stop reporting them in the in the Years

555
00:21:40,370 --> 00:21:37,860
afterwards you still get lots of reports

556
00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:40,380
again from professional at you um from

557
00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:43,500
aviators so I I want to talk I think

558
00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:45,480
obviously I want to say

559
00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:47,520
Sanderson was but I can't remember who

560
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:49,320
it was the high-ranking officer you

561
00:21:54,110 --> 00:21:51,600
mentioned but anyway I'd like to where

562
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:54,120
was it Sanders Sanford oh Stanford

563
00:22:00,049 --> 00:21:56,400
that's right okay I want to uh I want to

564
00:22:02,090 --> 00:22:00,059
kind of put uh kill a myth here because

565
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:02,100
I I get a lot of people saying well what

566
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:04,799
about these UFOs over Washington and

567
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:06,480
what this is a lot of people have seen

568
00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:07,679
this picture and I'm going to put it in

569
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:09,240
the show Notes too but you're seeing it

570
00:22:14,029 --> 00:22:11,039
live on YouTube

571
00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:14,039
um twitch and uh Facebook right right

572
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:16,500
now and that is that picture that you

573
00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:19,260
see when everyone shows Washington DC

574
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:23,640
July 12 1952 UFO sighting over UFO

575
00:22:29,870 --> 00:22:26,880
sightings over the capital that is

576
00:22:31,970 --> 00:22:29,880
reflections of the lights in the camera

577
00:22:33,710 --> 00:22:31,980
the reflections of the lights they

578
00:22:36,590 --> 00:22:33,720
totally match up with the lights Below

579
00:22:38,450 --> 00:22:36,600
in uh the street lamps and it's just

580
00:22:40,190 --> 00:22:38,460
what it was an anomaly in the camera and

581
00:22:42,289 --> 00:22:40,200
everyone thinks those are the UFOs that

582
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:42,299
those are not the UFOs just to let you

583
00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:43,440
know

584
00:22:48,289 --> 00:22:44,940
so

585
00:22:49,850 --> 00:22:48,299
um anyway uh and there's there are all

586
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:49,860
types of the camera anomalies that

587
00:22:53,930 --> 00:22:52,440
people do think Are UFOs there's a

588
00:22:56,029 --> 00:22:53,940
famous One in a diner and it's a

589
00:22:59,210 --> 00:22:56,039
reflection of you know overhead lights

590
00:23:00,010 --> 00:22:59,220
on the window you know and that yeah but

591
00:23:02,810 --> 00:23:00,020
anyway

592
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:02,820
uh yeah that's that's an interesting

593
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:04,740
time span so

594
00:23:07,850 --> 00:23:06,720
what do you of all the books that you

595
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:07,860
have written I'm just going to pop them

596
00:23:15,049 --> 00:23:10,559
up here this is this one this is behind

597
00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:15,059
you right now that's 1953 to 1954.

598
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:16,580
um and this one is

599
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:21,600
1946 is it to 1949. that's right and uh

600
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:24,720
this one is one I had up before 1950 to

601
00:23:29,169 --> 00:23:27,840
1952 uh what was your favorite book to

602
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:29,179
write in all those

603
00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:31,919
they all have their moments so you know

604
00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:34,740
the the process of writing them is the

605
00:23:38,570 --> 00:23:36,360
same each time it's a kind of void a

606
00:23:40,370 --> 00:23:38,580
discovery I guess every you know people

607
00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:40,380
who have looked at the historical record

608
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:42,840
they know about certain cases so you

609
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:44,640
know about the Thomas mantel case you

610
00:23:49,310 --> 00:23:46,320
know about maybe the George Gorman case

611
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:49,320
these are like late 40s cases but then

612
00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:51,360
you'll have other ones where you'll be

613
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:53,100
aware of them in terms of maybe the

614
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:55,679
location and maybe a rough date but you

615
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:57,120
might not know much about what happened

616
00:24:00,590 --> 00:23:58,799
and there will be other ones which are

617
00:24:02,510 --> 00:24:00,600
just completely you know new and that

618
00:24:04,010 --> 00:24:02,520
happened to me as well when I was

619
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:04,020
researching these and when I was looking

620
00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:05,760
for the intelligence information and the

621
00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:07,080
other documents associated with the case

622
00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:10,200
to write about them so it was you know

623
00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:11,700
it was it was really good for me a

624
00:24:15,950 --> 00:24:13,860
process of writing about things which I

625
00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:15,960
knew I had some information on and I was

626
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:17,820
aware of other cases but some were just

627
00:24:21,950 --> 00:24:20,159
completely you know oh oh this is just

628
00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:21,960
so exciting you know learning about

629
00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:23,940
things for the first time so each of

630
00:24:28,669 --> 00:24:25,860
those books had that particular kind of

631
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:28,679
you know thing to them but I guess in in

632
00:24:32,690 --> 00:24:30,480
terms of maybe in the writing the one

633
00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:32,700
I'm most kind of proud of it would be

634
00:24:36,169 --> 00:24:34,500
the the first one dawn of the flying

635
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:36,179
sources in terms of chronological order

636
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:38,880
because that's the you know the dawn of

637
00:24:43,010 --> 00:24:40,860
this kind of modern day phenomenon that

638
00:24:45,409 --> 00:24:43,020
we're all you know interested in it's

639
00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:45,419
not necessarily the first UFOs but it's

640
00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:47,039
the ones that's going to break through

641
00:24:51,409 --> 00:24:49,860
into the kind of public psyche in some

642
00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:51,419
which is you know it becomes a

643
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:53,280
phenomenon that everybody starts talking

644
00:24:58,730 --> 00:24:56,640
about yeah um you know so and it's these

645
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:58,740
really early cases and the ones like you

646
00:25:02,090 --> 00:25:00,240
know the Thomas mantel case the George

647
00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:02,100
Gorman case the child's wit head case

648
00:25:06,110 --> 00:25:03,720
from back then these are all pilot

649
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:06,120
encounters they're all really really

650
00:25:10,730 --> 00:25:08,640
interesting you know people know about

651
00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:10,740
Thomas mantel about how he allegedly

652
00:25:15,770 --> 00:25:13,620
chased Venus or or a balloon to his

653
00:25:19,070 --> 00:25:15,780
death but also you've got George Gorman

654
00:25:22,130 --> 00:25:19,080
who had a dog fight with a light over

655
00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:22,140
Fargo in North Dakota

656
00:25:25,010 --> 00:25:23,280
um one night

657
00:25:26,810 --> 00:25:25,020
um and this thing and effectively that

658
00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:26,820
could well be you know if that had been

659
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:28,260
a few years earlier that would have been

660
00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:31,500
classes of Foo Fighters yeah so and and

661
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:33,480
yet they were trying to put that off as

662
00:25:36,529 --> 00:25:34,799
being some kind of maybe a military

663
00:25:40,010 --> 00:25:36,539
aircraft that had come over from Canada

664
00:25:42,110 --> 00:25:40,020
and it was you know just um sort of you

665
00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:42,120
know playing tag with with the with the

666
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,880
Goldman's uh f-51 Mustang well that

667
00:25:49,070 --> 00:25:47,039
didn't happen but that's a story that

668
00:25:51,409 --> 00:25:49,080
was almost concocted as a possible

669
00:25:54,049 --> 00:25:51,419
explanation at the time of course it was

670
00:25:55,669 --> 00:25:54,059
it was dismissed soon afterwards but

671
00:25:56,690 --> 00:25:55,679
yeah and then I think another thing that

672
00:25:59,450 --> 00:25:56,700
said oh well it would be a weather

673
00:26:02,029 --> 00:25:59,460
balloon that was another suggestion uh

674
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:02,039
you know so why was he chasing a weather

675
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:03,600
balloon that was making head-on passes

676
00:26:06,649 --> 00:26:05,760
on his aircraft so you know it just

677
00:26:09,409 --> 00:26:06,659
doesn't matter

678
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:09,419
and you know there was speculation that

679
00:26:15,769 --> 00:26:13,200
he went higher than his oxygen uh level

680
00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:15,779
Montel here yes well not Thomas mantel

681
00:26:20,210 --> 00:26:18,120
yeah there is speculation but even then

682
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:20,220
when you look at the um the testimony

683
00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:22,320
from the surviving Pilots it doesn't

684
00:26:26,269 --> 00:26:23,940
quite add up

685
00:26:28,430 --> 00:26:26,279
um there are some sort of discrepancies

686
00:26:30,769 --> 00:26:28,440
and I cover these in the book that in so

687
00:26:32,210 --> 00:26:30,779
much as one of one of the pilots was

688
00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:32,220
having trouble at 12 and a half thousand

689
00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:35,220
feet now Nokia is quite a thing in terms

690
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,020
of you know Pilots getting oxygen

691
00:26:40,669 --> 00:26:39,120
deprivation and it can come on really

692
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,679
suddenly and if somebody's having

693
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:42,240
trouble at twelve and a half thousand

694
00:26:47,870 --> 00:26:45,120
and then the the records that they said

695
00:26:50,450 --> 00:26:47,880
they went up to 20 000 feet or or just

696
00:26:52,490 --> 00:26:50,460
below that then there's little chance

697
00:26:54,289 --> 00:26:52,500
that the Pilot's struggling at you know

698
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:54,299
much lower down would be able to get up

699
00:26:59,210 --> 00:26:57,120
to an altitude like that without a you

700
00:27:01,789 --> 00:26:59,220
know a serious things happening let

701
00:27:04,430 --> 00:27:01,799
alone Thomas mantel climbing even higher

702
00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:04,440
up in in you know afterwards after a UFO

703
00:27:09,230 --> 00:27:06,600
so there's parts of that story that

704
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:09,240
don't quite add up and if people do have

705
00:27:13,490 --> 00:27:11,279
look at the book dawn of the flying

706
00:27:15,470 --> 00:27:13,500
saucers you'll see it all laid out Blow

707
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,480
by blow and you'll see the testimony

708
00:27:19,789 --> 00:27:17,279
from the surviving pilots and you can

709
00:27:22,010 --> 00:27:19,799
see where it doesn't quite sort of add

710
00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:22,020
up entirely so there's there's something

711
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:23,940
going on there

712
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:26,340
um that doesn't doesn't quite you know

713
00:27:32,330 --> 00:27:29,279
sort of tally too much now that's not

714
00:27:34,190 --> 00:27:32,340
necessarily proof of UFO involvement but

715
00:27:36,590 --> 00:27:34,200
it just shows that the story isn't

716
00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:36,600
exactly what everybody sort of suggests

717
00:27:42,529 --> 00:27:38,120
it is

718
00:27:44,029 --> 00:27:42,539
and your book that's 1946 who is it 1949

719
00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:44,039
I believe

720
00:27:47,149 --> 00:27:44,940
um

721
00:27:50,570 --> 00:27:47,159
I'm sure roswell's in there but the

722
00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:50,580
funny is it or is it not yeah well it's

723
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:52,860
it's mentioned it's not an aerial case

724
00:27:57,169 --> 00:27:54,480
because obviously that wasn't a pilot in

725
00:27:59,330 --> 00:27:57,179
aircraft you say well that's true it was

726
00:28:01,549 --> 00:27:59,340
a crush on the ground yeah but the way

727
00:28:04,010 --> 00:28:01,559
that I kind of address Roswell and it's

728
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:04,020
an outlier to me because I I struggled

729
00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:05,640
to try and fit it into everything else

730
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:07,320
that was going on then

731
00:28:10,909 --> 00:28:08,640
um I'm not suggesting that Roswell

732
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:10,919
didn't happen it's just when you look at

733
00:28:14,750 --> 00:28:12,720
the intelligence documents and you look

734
00:28:16,430 --> 00:28:14,760
at everything else that was going on you

735
00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:16,440
just wonder how it all fits in with like

736
00:28:21,230 --> 00:28:19,320
so you know the creation of project sign

737
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:21,240
um now I'm not necessarily a conspiracy

738
00:28:25,010 --> 00:28:23,279
theorist but I understand that some

739
00:28:27,890 --> 00:28:25,020
people suggested it was a cover-up going

740
00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:27,900
on behind the scenes uh but you know

741
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:29,220
it's just one of those things that I

742
00:28:32,690 --> 00:28:31,200
have to deal with the kind of facts as I

743
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:32,700
see them and I try to put things through

744
00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:35,039
in a fairly straightforward way and I

745
00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:37,440
don't go too far down the kind of rabbit

746
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:39,900
hole of of conspiracy theories

747
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:41,279
um and in the introduction to the book

748
00:28:45,950 --> 00:28:43,440
and in the epilogue I do touch on

749
00:28:47,330 --> 00:28:45,960
Roswell but I basically be hold the

750
00:28:49,789 --> 00:28:47,340
hands up and say you know where does

751
00:28:51,769 --> 00:28:49,799
this all fit in I don't understand so

752
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:51,779
hopefully better Minds than mine will

753
00:28:55,730 --> 00:28:54,000
come along and explain that someday and

754
00:28:58,130 --> 00:28:55,740
hopefully we might get a resolution to

755
00:28:59,930 --> 00:28:58,140
Roswell in the future but then again we

756
00:29:01,669 --> 00:28:59,940
might not because unfortunately you know

757
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:01,679
pretty much everybody who's associated

758
00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:03,840
with the actual incident now is dead

759
00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:07,320
yeah um so in terms of eyewitnesses so

760
00:29:10,490 --> 00:29:08,700
it might be one of those things that

761
00:29:12,529 --> 00:29:10,500
just becomes a kind of urban legend if

762
00:29:13,850 --> 00:29:12,539
you like and everybody thinks that

763
00:29:15,049 --> 00:29:13,860
something happened there but proving

764
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:15,059
it's a completely different matter

765
00:29:20,269 --> 00:29:17,520
unfortunately I wonder what would have

766
00:29:22,669 --> 00:29:20,279
happened if Stanton Friedman didn't

767
00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:22,679
stumble across it all happened I believe

768
00:29:27,470 --> 00:29:25,020
he told me when someone didn't show up

769
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:27,480
for an interview or something and when

770
00:29:31,310 --> 00:29:29,520
he was at a radio station and they said

771
00:29:33,769 --> 00:29:31,320
oh you gotta talk to this guy over in

772
00:29:36,049 --> 00:29:33,779
Homer that's right you know he's he

773
00:29:39,289 --> 00:29:36,059
claims he's sorry UFO that didn't happen

774
00:29:42,110 --> 00:29:39,299
that day I wonder what Roswell would be

775
00:29:43,850 --> 00:29:42,120
today yeah there's a lot of this isn't

776
00:29:45,470 --> 00:29:43,860
there it might have come out later on in

777
00:29:47,149 --> 00:29:45,480
a different way or it just may they've

778
00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:47,159
not have and yet there's so many people

779
00:29:50,750 --> 00:29:49,200
associated with it it just took that

780
00:29:52,250 --> 00:29:50,760
kind of thing to break the ice didn't it

781
00:29:53,330 --> 00:29:52,260
and then everybody else came out the

782
00:29:55,250 --> 00:29:53,340
woodwork

783
00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:55,260
um and say oh yeah I was I was you know

784
00:29:59,330 --> 00:29:58,140
I was part of that yeah well you know I

785
00:30:03,049 --> 00:29:59,340
mean I think I think it's a very

786
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:03,059
interesting case in but um yeah it has

787
00:30:08,690 --> 00:30:06,000
like you said it's it it can morph into

788
00:30:10,669 --> 00:30:08,700
I always kind of worried about things

789
00:30:13,490 --> 00:30:10,679
morphing into

790
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:13,500
far away from the the truths and the

791
00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:15,600
facts you know I mean that's how things

792
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:19,320
can seem to go into like their own uh

793
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:21,120
you know like something if it's in print

794
00:30:24,889 --> 00:30:23,039
people think it's real you know that

795
00:30:26,510 --> 00:30:24,899
that type of situation that's why that's

796
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:26,520
why I'm really careful not to kind of

797
00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:29,039
speculate too much uh about you know the

798
00:30:33,529 --> 00:30:31,080
origin of of these things are being

799
00:30:35,389 --> 00:30:33,539
reported I mean you know I've read books

800
00:30:37,310 --> 00:30:35,399
in the past where people have sort of

801
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:37,320
you know tried to come up with a kind of

802
00:30:41,149 --> 00:30:39,600
a gender or a narrative and then you'll

803
00:30:43,310 --> 00:30:41,159
see that they try to dance on the head

804
00:30:44,930 --> 00:30:43,320
of a PIN to try and make you know facts

805
00:30:47,330 --> 00:30:44,940
shoot what they're writing about yes

806
00:30:48,830 --> 00:30:47,340
we've all seen books like that over over

807
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,840
the decades

808
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:50,640
um and but you know when I when I first

809
00:30:54,289 --> 00:30:52,320
like embarked on writing these books I

810
00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:54,299
was determined not to do that because

811
00:30:57,649 --> 00:30:55,980
the last thing I want is people going

812
00:30:59,450 --> 00:30:57,659
away thinking oh yeah he's just trying

813
00:31:01,370 --> 00:30:59,460
to sell something he's trying to sell a

814
00:31:02,930 --> 00:31:01,380
story he's trying to sell an idea he's

815
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:02,940
got in his head and that's the last

816
00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:05,039
thing from my mind I'm basically putting

817
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:07,919
down you know what the the in in detail

818
00:31:11,570 --> 00:31:09,600
I guess when I looked at these books

819
00:31:13,789 --> 00:31:11,580
some of these books in the 70s you would

820
00:31:15,470 --> 00:31:13,799
see these write-ups of some of the cases

821
00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:15,480
that I've covered but they're going to

822
00:31:19,850 --> 00:31:17,760
be a paragraph and me being this kind of

823
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:19,860
sponge back then yeah I was always what

824
00:31:23,149 --> 00:31:21,120
desperate for more information about

825
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:23,159
these cases I want to know more rather

826
00:31:27,049 --> 00:31:24,480
than just you know two or three or six

827
00:31:28,490 --> 00:31:27,059
or seven lines about a case and this is

828
00:31:30,049 --> 00:31:28,500
when I wrote these books I thought look

829
00:31:33,169 --> 00:31:30,059
I'm trying to kind of throw everything I

830
00:31:34,850 --> 00:31:33,179
can in terms of particular cases at the

831
00:31:36,889 --> 00:31:34,860
reader so they've got more information

832
00:31:38,510 --> 00:31:36,899
they know what to do with but at least

833
00:31:40,610 --> 00:31:38,520
then you can make a much more informed

834
00:31:43,010 --> 00:31:40,620
kind of opinion as to what a case you

835
00:31:44,810 --> 00:31:43,020
know you know what represents rather

836
00:31:45,649 --> 00:31:44,820
than just a few lines on a page of a

837
00:31:47,570 --> 00:31:45,659
book

838
00:31:50,690 --> 00:31:47,580
right right now I'm I've been reading a

839
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:50,700
manuscript from Chris Styles about the

840
00:31:56,510 --> 00:31:54,480
Shelburne uh 1960 incident in shag

841
00:31:59,149 --> 00:31:56,520
Harbor how they both kind of they

842
00:32:00,889 --> 00:31:59,159
mingled together so and I even had Chris

843
00:32:02,090 --> 00:32:00,899
on my show I'm going to be writing a

844
00:32:05,690 --> 00:32:02,100
forward for the book but I even had

845
00:32:08,330 --> 00:32:05,700
Chris on the show where um I said to him

846
00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:08,340
well didn't people see like uh two

847
00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:10,200
crafts down and one was in danger he

848
00:32:15,289 --> 00:32:13,679
goes no that's that's Shelburne uh well

849
00:32:16,750 --> 00:32:15,299
you know I mean it's a long they're just

850
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:16,760
mixed in together

851
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:20,340
in 1960 and what happened in 1967 and

852
00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:24,480
but yeah I mean it's when someone goes

853
00:32:28,850 --> 00:32:26,340
like on TV or whatever and they mix them

854
00:32:29,870 --> 00:32:28,860
together it's so hard to undo it you

855
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:29,880
know

856
00:32:37,149 --> 00:32:33,120
um so that is those years are very

857
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:37,159
interesting from 1946 to 1949 as well

858
00:32:41,930 --> 00:32:39,960
and uh what are some of the cases that

859
00:32:44,029 --> 00:32:41,940
stand out if you can recall I know we

860
00:32:45,950 --> 00:32:44,039
have three three sections three books it

861
00:32:48,110 --> 00:32:45,960
might be hard to pull one out of the hat

862
00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:48,120
but uh what can you recall that's an

863
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:50,700
interesting case in that book well I

864
00:32:55,730 --> 00:32:52,679
mean I mentioned um the George Goldman

865
00:32:58,010 --> 00:32:55,740
case there so that was that was 1948.

866
00:33:00,049 --> 00:32:58,020
um I'll I'll go through a couple of

867
00:33:01,370 --> 00:33:00,059
those really you talk about the tech

868
00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:01,380
you're talking about the modern day

869
00:33:07,250 --> 00:33:03,600
phenomena you talk about the Tic Tac now

870
00:33:09,409 --> 00:33:07,260
let's go back to uh February 1949 and

871
00:33:11,570 --> 00:33:09,419
there was a training aircraft it was a

872
00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:11,580
an 8011 Kansas so this was like a

873
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:13,500
navigation Trader and there's a crew on

874
00:33:16,490 --> 00:33:15,120
board this aircraft and they saw

875
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:16,500
something that they declared was

876
00:33:20,029 --> 00:33:18,360
actually sausage shaped

877
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:20,039
um the the forward and the trailing ends

878
00:33:24,889 --> 00:33:22,799
looked like a B-29 nose so it was a kind

879
00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:24,899
of like a cucumber Chef I guess now that

880
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:26,580
could be misinter you know could it be

881
00:33:32,090 --> 00:33:29,100
interpreted as a Tic Tac that's yeah

882
00:33:33,889 --> 00:33:32,100
almost a classic cigar shape kind of uh

883
00:33:35,690 --> 00:33:33,899
you know a thing that was that was a

884
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:35,700
phrase that was used probably through

885
00:33:39,169 --> 00:33:37,679
the 60s and 70s wasn't it you know I

886
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,179
remember that from books I used to to

887
00:33:44,930 --> 00:33:41,279
read back then as well of descriptions

888
00:33:46,850 --> 00:33:44,940
of objects and that now I suppose they

889
00:33:48,649 --> 00:33:46,860
call them Tic Tacs so there's a case

890
00:33:51,710 --> 00:33:48,659
from back then that has that resonates

891
00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:51,720
today and then you've got well this

892
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:53,460
comes from flying source of fever this

893
00:33:57,169 --> 00:33:55,140
particular one and we're looking at the

894
00:34:00,409 --> 00:33:57,179
Yellow Sea which is which is off China

895
00:34:03,049 --> 00:34:00,419
isn't it uh and this is in about

896
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:03,059
um I think this is October 1951 and the

897
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:05,519
crew of a flying bit of a US Navy flying

898
00:34:09,649 --> 00:34:07,919
boat and they say this thing well first

899
00:34:11,450 --> 00:34:09,659
of all that one of the Gunners sees it

900
00:34:13,790 --> 00:34:11,460
and then it's picked up on radar so this

901
00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:13,800
is a radar visual case

902
00:34:18,649 --> 00:34:16,260
um and it's it looks almost like a

903
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:18,659
mig-15 fighter without the tail and

904
00:34:22,010 --> 00:34:20,520
without the cockpit and they've actually

905
00:34:23,869 --> 00:34:22,020
got a drawing of it in the Blue Book

906
00:34:26,089 --> 00:34:23,879
files um but it obviously comes from

907
00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:26,099
Grudge because it it's it took place

908
00:34:30,530 --> 00:34:27,839
before Blue Book was actually set up in

909
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,540
March 19 152 and then the intelligence

910
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:32,639
people are trying the damnedest to try

911
00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:34,560
and reconcile this thing this this

912
00:34:39,950 --> 00:34:37,800
strange craft with a mig-15 to try and

913
00:34:41,450 --> 00:34:39,960
say well look it's a it's a Meek it's a

914
00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:41,460
Russian fighter

915
00:34:46,849 --> 00:34:44,820
um even though the the way scene would

916
00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:46,859
be in almost Beyond

917
00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:49,020
um a Russian pilot being able to fly one

918
00:34:52,849 --> 00:34:50,399
of these Fighters bear in mind they had

919
00:34:55,310 --> 00:34:52,859
a very uh very small fuel load back in

920
00:34:57,950 --> 00:34:55,320
those days to get to where it was and

921
00:35:00,050 --> 00:34:57,960
get back home safely but you can see why

922
00:35:01,790 --> 00:35:00,060
that they're trying to you know try to

923
00:35:03,170 --> 00:35:01,800
say oh you know it's just a Russian

924
00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:03,180
fighter

925
00:35:08,329 --> 00:35:05,220
um so that was an interesting case as

926
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:08,339
well that this strange looking tailless

927
00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:11,160
craft without with these short stubby

928
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:13,440
wings and this huge uh plume of orange

929
00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:15,359
red and white Flames coming out the back

930
00:35:18,829 --> 00:35:17,640
of it and then and the intelligence

931
00:35:20,569 --> 00:35:18,839
people are just trying to say oh yeah

932
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:20,579
you just saw a Russian aircraft but

933
00:35:23,990 --> 00:35:22,320
that's quite a detailed case as well and

934
00:35:26,510 --> 00:35:24,000
that was quite interesting and actually

935
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:26,520
on the cover of flying saucer fever

936
00:35:30,589 --> 00:35:28,079
um for people who have seen the cover

937
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:30,599
there's a picture of a B-36 Peacemaker

938
00:35:36,069 --> 00:35:32,460
which was a huge

939
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:36,079
um sex propeller uh four jet engine

940
00:35:41,450 --> 00:35:38,240
nuclear bias

941
00:35:43,970 --> 00:35:41,460
it's a huge your aircraft I think it had

942
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:43,980
like 15 crew members on board and this

943
00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:45,780
this aircraft was being watched from the

944
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:49,020
ground flying over over an Airfield

945
00:35:54,290 --> 00:35:51,359
um in the south of America

946
00:35:57,710 --> 00:35:54,300
um and as they as they looked at it from

947
00:36:00,410 --> 00:35:57,720
the ground there was one UFO near it but

948
00:36:02,750 --> 00:36:00,420
also another one which appeared to be in

949
00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:02,760
between the tail of the aircraft and the

950
00:36:06,829 --> 00:36:04,859
trailing edge of the wing so it was

951
00:36:09,710 --> 00:36:06,839
nestled in between you know right next

952
00:36:12,650 --> 00:36:09,720
to the airplane and of actually of the

953
00:36:14,810 --> 00:36:12,660
of the intelligence file to do with the

954
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:14,820
case so that the investigation

955
00:36:19,609 --> 00:36:17,280
the actual bit that's available publicly

956
00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:19,619
is only a very small proportion of the

957
00:36:23,089 --> 00:36:21,780
overall case and the intelligence

958
00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:23,099
officer who actually was on the ground

959
00:36:26,569 --> 00:36:25,020
he was one of the witnesses he was also

960
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,579
the person who actually had to come up

961
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:28,560
with this file to pass it on to Blue

962
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:29,760
Book

963
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:31,260
um and he reckoned it was one of the

964
00:36:35,810 --> 00:36:33,540
biggest kind of case you know Case Files

965
00:36:37,310 --> 00:36:35,820
that was ever it was ever dreamed up in

966
00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:37,320
terms of what was sent out and it was

967
00:36:41,630 --> 00:36:39,599
something like 70 odd pages and yet only

968
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:41,640
a few of the pages actually remain so

969
00:36:45,230 --> 00:36:43,140
you just have to wonder what was in the

970
00:36:48,650 --> 00:36:45,240
rest of the pages yeah you would love to

971
00:36:50,030 --> 00:36:48,660
see the crew uh kind of reports what

972
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:50,040
they saw from the airplane because they

973
00:36:53,630 --> 00:36:51,839
were right next to this thing whereas

974
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:53,640
they don't appear it's only the grand

975
00:36:57,109 --> 00:36:55,440
Witnesses actually appear in the

976
00:36:58,609 --> 00:36:57,119
intelligence files this is a real shame

977
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:58,619
so you just have to wonder you know

978
00:37:02,810 --> 00:37:00,720
what's going on there so that that's an

979
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:02,820
interesting case as well

980
00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:04,079
um and then of course also the cover

981
00:37:08,089 --> 00:37:06,060
which we talked about earlier about the

982
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,099
the cluster meteor pilot that's on the

983
00:37:11,569 --> 00:37:10,079
front of the cover of intercept and

984
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:11,579
identify

985
00:37:17,870 --> 00:37:14,760
um which is the 1953 1954 cases but also

986
00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:17,880
in that book Kelly Johnson who was the

987
00:37:23,690 --> 00:37:21,060
chief engineer of Lockheed he turns out

988
00:37:26,109 --> 00:37:23,700
that he saw one from his Ranch but it's

989
00:37:28,130 --> 00:37:26,119
also in conjunction with a U.S Navy

990
00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:28,140
constellation aircraft that was up in

991
00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:29,820
the air at the time and the PLA and the

992
00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:31,740
crew on bought that saw the same thing

993
00:37:37,010 --> 00:37:34,200
so you've got these kind of you know um

994
00:37:39,050 --> 00:37:37,020
multiple witness sightings and that's

995
00:37:40,130 --> 00:37:39,060
quite an interesting case as well so and

996
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:40,140
that happened

997
00:37:50,210 --> 00:37:44,880
1953

998
00:37:52,010 --> 00:37:50,220
so yeah there's you know there's various

999
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:52,020
cases peppered through these books which

1000
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:54,000
some of them you know people that may

1001
00:37:58,190 --> 00:37:55,440
have never come across before when they

1002
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:58,200
read them uh but you know they're really

1003
00:38:02,329 --> 00:38:00,480
interesting in their own right and I

1004
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:02,339
think that they deserve more of an

1005
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:03,599
airing that they have in the past

1006
00:38:08,510 --> 00:38:06,480
because a lot as I said before a lot of

1007
00:38:10,370 --> 00:38:08,520
these these cases I've never come across

1008
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:10,380
them before they've obviously been

1009
00:38:14,089 --> 00:38:12,240
buried away in the Blue Book files and

1010
00:38:16,130 --> 00:38:14,099
the documentation and if they have

1011
00:38:18,530 --> 00:38:16,140
appeared in print before it's only been

1012
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,540
maybe a few lines and you know out of a

1013
00:38:22,370 --> 00:38:21,119
you know a huge book but they deserve

1014
00:38:25,370 --> 00:38:22,380
much more

1015
00:38:27,650 --> 00:38:25,380
do you have uh any idea through all

1016
00:38:30,890 --> 00:38:27,660
these books any

1017
00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:30,900
um let's see verified speeds that were

1018
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:33,359
just you know non

1019
00:38:37,730 --> 00:38:35,640
oh yeah we couldn't have done it yeah

1020
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,740
and and what was like the highest speed

1021
00:38:42,770 --> 00:38:40,079
of any thing that you can recall right

1022
00:38:44,210 --> 00:38:42,780
off hand so most of the cases every 10

1023
00:38:45,770 --> 00:38:44,220
if you look at the kind of late 40s

1024
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:45,780
early 1950s

1025
00:38:50,089 --> 00:38:48,240
um the American all-weather interceptors

1026
00:38:52,190 --> 00:38:50,099
and I'm talking about the f94 stealth

1027
00:38:54,410 --> 00:38:52,200
Starfire at this time it was a two-seat

1028
00:38:56,030 --> 00:38:54,420
lockage jet fighter and that was the

1029
00:38:57,770 --> 00:38:56,040
standard all-weather Interceptor and it

1030
00:38:59,870 --> 00:38:57,780
could do about 600 miles an hour it

1031
00:39:02,569 --> 00:38:59,880
wasn't supersonic but it could do about

1032
00:39:04,370 --> 00:39:02,579
600 100 knots and these things were

1033
00:39:06,770 --> 00:39:04,380
outpacing it you know twice the speed of

1034
00:39:09,470 --> 00:39:06,780
it so straight away you can tell that

1035
00:39:11,329 --> 00:39:09,480
and this is even faster than the fastest

1036
00:39:13,370 --> 00:39:11,339
aircraft at the time uh the

1037
00:39:14,990 --> 00:39:13,380
record-breaking aircraft so you can tell

1038
00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:15,000
from then that these things were

1039
00:39:20,329 --> 00:39:16,920
demonstrating the speeds that were you

1040
00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:20,339
know unknown to humankind uh it was they

1041
00:39:24,290 --> 00:39:22,140
were definitely beyond what was what was

1042
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:24,300
you know people were capable of whether

1043
00:39:28,490 --> 00:39:25,920
it was American aircraft it was Russian

1044
00:39:30,530 --> 00:39:28,500
aircraft or British or whatever and then

1045
00:39:32,810 --> 00:39:30,540
there are other cases of things even

1046
00:39:34,190 --> 00:39:32,820
faster I I can't give you a figure off

1047
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:34,200
the top of my head you know particular

1048
00:39:37,250 --> 00:39:36,000
figures but some of them were really

1049
00:39:39,170 --> 00:39:37,260
quick

1050
00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:39,180
um and and you know sometimes they say

1051
00:39:41,690 --> 00:39:40,380
that they've just disappeared off into

1052
00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:41,700
the heavens

1053
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:44,040
um and sometimes they just they

1054
00:39:49,490 --> 00:39:47,220
um almost demonstrate uh fantastic rate

1055
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:49,500
of climb as well in the George Gorman

1056
00:39:53,569 --> 00:39:51,839
case from October 1948.

1057
00:39:56,210 --> 00:39:53,579
um the thing actually the the light

1058
00:39:58,250 --> 00:39:56,220
basically just goes upwards and he's

1059
00:40:00,410 --> 00:39:58,260
trying to fly after it uh he's climbing

1060
00:40:02,690 --> 00:40:00,420
in his f-51 Mustang and he gets to the

1061
00:40:05,210 --> 00:40:02,700
point where the engine can't basically

1062
00:40:07,010 --> 00:40:05,220
Propel him upwards any further it goes

1063
00:40:08,930 --> 00:40:07,020
it what called an engine stall and he

1064
00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:08,940
drops out of the sky you know because

1065
00:40:12,170 --> 00:40:10,680
this you just can't chase after this

1066
00:40:15,770 --> 00:40:12,180
thing's aircraft's just not powerful

1067
00:40:18,770 --> 00:40:15,780
enough to chase after it yeah yeah uh

1068
00:40:20,450 --> 00:40:18,780
you know I I bring that up um a lot of

1069
00:40:23,150 --> 00:40:20,460
times when you see like images people

1070
00:40:25,910 --> 00:40:23,160
have seen things like this and then you

1071
00:40:27,950 --> 00:40:25,920
know the characteristics of travel

1072
00:40:32,030 --> 00:40:27,960
um and unusual Maneuvers and things like

1073
00:40:34,430 --> 00:40:32,040
that yeah that people have seen and then

1074
00:40:36,829 --> 00:40:34,440
I talked to someone and they'll say oh

1075
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:36,839
you know what we're what everybody's

1076
00:40:42,770 --> 00:40:39,599
seeing is just military crap that we're

1077
00:40:45,290 --> 00:40:42,780
not we're not aware of yet and then I I

1078
00:40:47,569 --> 00:40:45,300
I kind of like everyone forgets the

1079
00:40:49,250 --> 00:40:47,579
history and you know what people have

1080
00:40:50,810 --> 00:40:49,260
been seeing for you know many

1081
00:40:51,470 --> 00:40:50,820
generations

1082
00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:51,480
um

1083
00:40:57,050 --> 00:40:54,720
that defy uh some of them Define what we

1084
00:40:59,569 --> 00:40:57,060
could do with the top of our technology

1085
00:41:02,870 --> 00:40:59,579
today that people were seeing back in

1086
00:41:04,910 --> 00:41:02,880
the 1940s say you know if they if they

1087
00:41:06,349 --> 00:41:04,920
these things were kind of you know high

1088
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:06,359
technology aircraft that either the

1089
00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:08,640
America was inventing or the Russians

1090
00:41:12,589 --> 00:41:10,380
were experimenting with or some other

1091
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,599
Nation around around the world then

1092
00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:14,400
surely without evidence of these things

1093
00:41:19,790 --> 00:41:17,579
by now so you can't write off

1094
00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:19,800
um you know the the early 19 the the

1095
00:41:24,290 --> 00:41:22,200
sorry the early 1950s or the late 1940s

1096
00:41:26,329 --> 00:41:24,300
sightings as experimental aircraft

1097
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:26,339
because you know they were documented

1098
00:41:30,530 --> 00:41:28,380
now there would be in history books by

1099
00:41:32,270 --> 00:41:30,540
now yeah even if even if there were

1100
00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:32,280
failures uh ended being written off

1101
00:41:35,870 --> 00:41:34,079
surely this information would have come

1102
00:41:38,750 --> 00:41:35,880
out by now you only have to look at the

1103
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:38,760
gestation period of the stealth the f117

1104
00:41:42,890 --> 00:41:41,280
or the B2 stealth bomber to know that

1105
00:41:45,890 --> 00:41:42,900
you know there's a certain time lag

1106
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:45,900
between them being developed built flown

1107
00:41:51,050 --> 00:41:49,200
and then being publicly unveiled

1108
00:41:53,390 --> 00:41:51,060
um you know even some experimental

1109
00:41:55,490 --> 00:41:53,400
Russian aircraft from the 50s and 60s

1110
00:41:58,010 --> 00:41:55,500
there might have been fairly unknown to

1111
00:42:00,530 --> 00:41:58,020
most western people but the air

1112
00:42:03,349 --> 00:42:00,540
intelligence you know um Assets in in

1113
00:42:05,390 --> 00:42:03,359
nato in America they were still aware of

1114
00:42:08,089 --> 00:42:05,400
these things you know years before a lot

1115
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:08,099
of them were made unveiled publicly so

1116
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:10,800
the these kind of like explanations for

1117
00:42:16,010 --> 00:42:13,680
UFOs back in the 40s and 50s simply

1118
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:16,020
don't wash and you can't blame drones

1119
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:18,240
back then because drones in those days

1120
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:20,940
were full-size aircraft practically yeah

1121
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:24,000
um you know the drones were V1 um the

1122
00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:25,680
the American the US Navy were expecting

1123
00:42:30,650 --> 00:42:27,599
were copies of the V1 flying bomb it's

1124
00:42:33,410 --> 00:42:30,660
called The jv2 Loon that was a drone uh

1125
00:42:36,650 --> 00:42:33,420
the Russians had turbo jet-powered uh

1126
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:36,660
aircraft like aircraft sized drones

1127
00:42:41,329 --> 00:42:38,640
um that they were experimenting with in

1128
00:42:44,329 --> 00:42:41,339
the early 50s but you know those kind of

1129
00:42:46,069 --> 00:42:44,339
things didn't and couldn't maneuver or

1130
00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:46,079
go as quick as some of the things that

1131
00:42:49,310 --> 00:42:48,420
were reported so yes okay you might be

1132
00:42:51,410 --> 00:42:49,320
able to write off certain things

1133
00:42:55,730 --> 00:42:51,420
nowadays as drones but certainly not

1134
00:42:58,250 --> 00:42:55,740
learn that's right that's right and you

1135
00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:58,260
know I think as we move on through our

1136
00:43:03,530 --> 00:43:01,920
technology it will be I mean tougher and

1137
00:43:05,930 --> 00:43:03,540
tougher to figure things out I mean look

1138
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:05,940
at starlink for one I mean so many

1139
00:43:10,490 --> 00:43:08,880
people think that's you know a UFO a

1140
00:43:12,770 --> 00:43:10,500
friend of mine like contacted me you

1141
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:12,780
can't believe what I saw you know and uh

1142
00:43:17,210 --> 00:43:15,359
out in uh he was in Arizona I think at

1143
00:43:20,089 --> 00:43:17,220
the time but you know it's just really

1144
00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:20,099
hard to uh it's going to be more

1145
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,500
difficult and CGI is going to get better

1146
00:43:26,809 --> 00:43:24,720
and it's going to be harder and harder

1147
00:43:28,490 --> 00:43:26,819
to know what's real and what's not and

1148
00:43:31,010 --> 00:43:28,500
that's oh yeah there's so many people

1149
00:43:32,450 --> 00:43:31,020
said yeah people send me pictures and

1150
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:32,460
people send me video

1151
00:43:35,569 --> 00:43:33,839
um you know a little direct message me

1152
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:35,579
and send me things and say you know Greg

1153
00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:37,200
what do you think they say is I'm not a

1154
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:39,839
photo expert you know I can't really say

1155
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:42,480
what they are and really my opinion at

1156
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:44,160
the end of the day is no worse no better

1157
00:43:49,490 --> 00:43:47,700
than anybody else's so you know it's I

1158
00:43:51,230 --> 00:43:49,500
mean I I don't I don't really want to

1159
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:51,240
say to people like don't send me stuff

1160
00:43:55,550 --> 00:43:53,040
like this because I can't really help

1161
00:43:57,230 --> 00:43:55,560
you but effectively that's what it boils

1162
00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:57,240
down to because I'm not you know I'm not

1163
00:44:01,430 --> 00:43:58,740
qualified to be able to say to somebody

1164
00:44:04,130 --> 00:44:01,440
yeah that's real or yeah that's a that's

1165
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:04,140
a forgery or uh that's what that is I

1166
00:44:07,730 --> 00:44:05,700
simply don't know they'll be better off

1167
00:44:10,309 --> 00:44:07,740
saying those to people who can you know

1168
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:10,319
look at and analyze imagery you know

1169
00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:11,760
professionally

1170
00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:14,640
right I'm trying to uh someone asked if

1171
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:17,160
we discuss Cape Verde Missouri

1172
00:44:23,870 --> 00:44:20,880
uh case and I think that was 19 wasn't

1173
00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:23,880
that very early on are you familiar with

1174
00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:26,460
that case not of hand unless it unless

1175
00:44:29,450 --> 00:44:27,900
it's under a different name or something

1176
00:44:31,970 --> 00:44:29,460
or it's got like uh you know people

1177
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:31,980
associate with it love let them I had a

1178
00:44:38,210 --> 00:44:34,560
granddaughter uh on this show that

1179
00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:38,220
discussed that uh uh of supposed the

1180
00:44:43,309 --> 00:44:40,260
Reverend or I believe that's what it was

1181
00:44:46,010 --> 00:44:43,319
that her grandfather was it anyway it's

1182
00:44:48,290 --> 00:44:46,020
a it's it's interesting uh to answer

1183
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,300
Joni's uh question

1184
00:44:53,210 --> 00:44:50,400
um no it doesn't really fit into what

1185
00:44:55,250 --> 00:44:53,220
we're discussing this evening what are

1186
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:55,260
some of the really interesting European

1187
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:58,079
cases in in any of these books that uh

1188
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:00,000
you can think of

1189
00:45:06,290 --> 00:45:04,079
European cases this well the the gloss

1190
00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:06,300
to meet your um case the flight

1191
00:45:10,670 --> 00:45:08,520
Lieutenant James Saladin the the October

1192
00:45:12,290 --> 00:45:10,680
1954 case that you can see on the

1193
00:45:13,970 --> 00:45:12,300
picture behind me you know that that's

1194
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:13,980
that's one of the classic ones from back

1195
00:45:18,650 --> 00:45:16,200
then there were other kind of British

1196
00:45:20,270 --> 00:45:18,660
crews who on transatlantic flights that

1197
00:45:22,250 --> 00:45:20,280
were seeing strange things

1198
00:45:24,470 --> 00:45:22,260
um about that time there was a crew that

1199
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:24,480
were flying over Labrador I moved up

1200
00:45:29,329 --> 00:45:26,640
quite Europe but it's a you know there

1201
00:45:31,790 --> 00:45:29,339
were a boak uh that's a a British

1202
00:45:34,190 --> 00:45:31,800
Airline a transatlantic Airline and they

1203
00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:34,200
saw something that it was like seven

1204
00:45:38,569 --> 00:45:36,660
seven objects of which one of them the

1205
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:38,579
biggest one was actually changing shape

1206
00:45:42,410 --> 00:45:41,040
uh so it started off it wasn't a shape

1207
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,420
and then it kind of morphed into

1208
00:45:46,010 --> 00:45:44,160
something else and the official

1209
00:45:48,250 --> 00:45:46,020
explanation was that they were seeing

1210
00:45:51,470 --> 00:45:48,260
Mars

1211
00:45:53,089 --> 00:45:51,480
yeah morphs all the time yeah and it

1212
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:53,099
also has a lot of about six other

1213
00:45:58,010 --> 00:45:54,720
objects with it so you know how does

1214
00:45:59,870 --> 00:45:58,020
that work yeah I I love some of the uh

1215
00:46:03,349 --> 00:45:59,880
explanations it's been you know the

1216
00:46:05,930 --> 00:46:03,359
swamp gas explanations over over the

1217
00:46:10,849 --> 00:46:05,940
years how ridiculous they they can be

1218
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:10,859
you know Venus Venus is can be tricky

1219
00:46:16,730 --> 00:46:12,960
you know I mean because it's so bright

1220
00:46:18,770 --> 00:46:16,740
in the sky and and uh you know people

1221
00:46:20,390 --> 00:46:18,780
see that like at first you think about

1222
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:20,400
what is that you know that type of thing

1223
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:21,839
sometimes it could be like that and

1224
00:46:25,730 --> 00:46:23,280
that's the thing though isn't it it'll

1225
00:46:27,950 --> 00:46:25,740
fool you know some of us some of the

1226
00:46:30,349 --> 00:46:27,960
time but if you're a professional let's

1227
00:46:32,089 --> 00:46:30,359
say nylon pilot and you're flying you

1228
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:32,099
know day after day night after night on

1229
00:46:35,569 --> 00:46:34,079
the same kind of scheduled run because

1230
00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:35,579
that's what they usually do they would

1231
00:46:39,770 --> 00:46:37,460
fly to the same cities most of the time

1232
00:46:42,230 --> 00:46:39,780
they would say that these kind of things

1233
00:46:44,690 --> 00:46:42,240
on a regular basis so they would see

1234
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:44,700
Venus they would see other stars they

1235
00:46:47,569 --> 00:46:45,839
would say

1236
00:46:49,490 --> 00:46:47,579
um that you would see other aircraft in

1237
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:49,500
the skies they would see strange weather

1238
00:46:53,390 --> 00:46:51,839
you know they would know if you were

1239
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:53,400
flying long enough

1240
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:54,960
um even if you were flying transatlantic

1241
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:56,160
or you're flying over America or

1242
00:47:00,109 --> 00:46:58,800
wherever you'd recognize these things

1243
00:47:02,089 --> 00:47:00,119
for what they were after a certain

1244
00:47:04,190 --> 00:47:02,099
period of time if you're a new crew were

1245
00:47:05,329 --> 00:47:04,200
you a new well and fair enough but if

1246
00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:05,339
you'd have you know hundreds or

1247
00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:07,980
thousands of hours under your belt then

1248
00:47:12,650 --> 00:47:10,260
you would know you're what you were

1249
00:47:14,270 --> 00:47:12,660
looking at and also more importantly you

1250
00:47:15,650 --> 00:47:14,280
would know what you you'd seen for the

1251
00:47:17,329 --> 00:47:15,660
first time and it was something out of

1252
00:47:18,829 --> 00:47:17,339
the ordinary and these were the pilots

1253
00:47:21,950 --> 00:47:18,839
who were coming forward and saying look

1254
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:21,960
this is not what you're saying it is you

1255
00:47:25,970 --> 00:47:23,700
know this is something different and yet

1256
00:47:28,550 --> 00:47:25,980
it was still being written off as you

1257
00:47:30,349 --> 00:47:28,560
know Venus swamp well swamp gases later

1258
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:30,359
on uh weather balloons you know other

1259
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:33,000
aircraft concrete Reflections all these

1260
00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:35,400
kind of things were being trotted out to

1261
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:37,260
explain things which when you look at

1262
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:39,119
the the testimony and you look at the

1263
00:47:42,290 --> 00:47:40,079
information that were past the

1264
00:47:44,210 --> 00:47:42,300
Intelligence Officers to to be passed up

1265
00:47:47,390 --> 00:47:44,220
to Blue Book and the other and sign and

1266
00:47:49,550 --> 00:47:47,400
Grudge Etc that um they just don't it

1267
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:49,560
just doesn't Stack Up on the throat yeah

1268
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:51,359
you know it's kind of an insult to

1269
00:47:55,730 --> 00:47:54,240
people that have you know they take a

1270
00:47:57,770 --> 00:47:55,740
chance and come forward and talk about

1271
00:47:59,390 --> 00:47:57,780
what they've seen and then you know

1272
00:48:02,150 --> 00:47:59,400
they're they're kind of insulted by

1273
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:02,160
saying no you saw you know you saw Venus

1274
00:48:06,109 --> 00:48:03,680
you know is

1275
00:48:08,750 --> 00:48:06,119
well I didn't know Venus could you know

1276
00:48:10,849 --> 00:48:08,760
do right angle turns at 2 000 miles an

1277
00:48:13,250 --> 00:48:10,859
hour you know that type of thing you

1278
00:48:15,470 --> 00:48:13,260
know I mean that's like it's yeah and I

1279
00:48:16,730 --> 00:48:15,480
think it's just getting that I don't

1280
00:48:17,870 --> 00:48:16,740
know you want to call it debunking or

1281
00:48:19,730 --> 00:48:17,880
whatever it is getting that word out

1282
00:48:22,329 --> 00:48:19,740
there and getting it in print and

1283
00:48:25,069 --> 00:48:22,339
whatever it is didn't kind of deflates

1284
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:25,079
anyone's uh testimony yeah it's just

1285
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:26,640
basically just getting keeping a lid on

1286
00:48:30,530 --> 00:48:28,319
the situation and just trying to defuse

1287
00:48:32,690 --> 00:48:30,540
it and um just diminish it you know

1288
00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:32,700
importance yeah and just say look you

1289
00:48:36,829 --> 00:48:34,319
know nothing to see here move on and

1290
00:48:38,329 --> 00:48:36,839
that's all it was I guess yeah and how

1291
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:38,339
they couldn't explain themselves so you

1292
00:48:41,990 --> 00:48:40,319
know just just like you just say oh yeah

1293
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:42,000
you're just saying things yeah and how

1294
00:48:45,890 --> 00:48:43,440
much have you had to drink and all that

1295
00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:45,900
type of thing exactly yeah yeah uh

1296
00:48:50,329 --> 00:48:47,520
Graham where can someone get a hold of

1297
00:48:52,790 --> 00:48:50,339
you I know you're on uh Twitter yeah so

1298
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:52,800
yeah so uh I bought a 750 is my Twitter

1299
00:48:55,250 --> 00:48:53,760
handle

1300
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,260
um if you look for me on Amazon if you

1301
00:48:58,730 --> 00:48:57,119
just put my name into an Amazon search

1302
00:49:00,109 --> 00:48:58,740
engine then you'll you'll you'll see the

1303
00:49:02,089 --> 00:49:00,119
book titles come up that way that's the

1304
00:49:04,730 --> 00:49:02,099
easiest way but if you look at my bio on

1305
00:49:06,410 --> 00:49:04,740
on on Twitter you'll find my website

1306
00:49:09,470 --> 00:49:06,420
there as well so it's easy just to go

1307
00:49:10,910 --> 00:49:09,480
that way yeah excellent well I hope to

1308
00:49:13,309 --> 00:49:10,920
have you back on again you're always

1309
00:49:16,550 --> 00:49:13,319
really a great guest thank you really

1310
00:49:18,890 --> 00:49:16,560
enjoyable and I I called you I'm gonna

1311
00:49:21,190 --> 00:49:18,900
embarrass you I called you the Dave

1312
00:49:23,390 --> 00:49:21,200
Marler of the UK

1313
00:49:25,550 --> 00:49:23,400
I wouldn't go I wouldn't I wouldn't

1314
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:25,560
label myself in the same universe as

1315
00:49:31,069 --> 00:49:28,200
Dave Marlow he's alone to himself he's

1316
00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:31,079
uh he's he's a great guy and he's got a

1317
00:49:34,430 --> 00:49:32,880
great thing going with uh with this new

1318
00:49:36,050 --> 00:49:34,440
initiative that he's got to digitize

1319
00:49:38,829 --> 00:49:36,060
it's pretty exciting all the

1320
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:38,839
documentation yeah yeah

1321
00:49:43,250 --> 00:49:42,000
supporting that yeah yeah all right well

1322
00:49:45,710 --> 00:49:43,260
thank you so much it's been a real

1323
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:45,720
pleasure you take care yeah cheers

1324
00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:47,760
Martin bye-bye all right bye now all

1325
00:49:51,770 --> 00:49:49,260
right everyone so why don't you jump

1326
00:49:54,589 --> 00:49:51,780
over to our other stream we have Brandon

1327
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:54,599
fugle coming on in a couple minutes and

1328
00:49:59,329 --> 00:49:56,400
for those of you just listening to this